Dragon, Elven, Grail Lineages + White & Green Table sides of The Round of Avalon, and, of Camelot

another interesting lineage

(i can tell by geni.com, that many of us are related back to the old kings/queens etc.,)

Jimeno of Pamplona, I
is your 39th great grandfather.
You - susan lynne schwenger

→

Lynda Mae Handy - Schwenger
your mother
Murray Bruce Schwenger
your father

Son of Albert Heinrich Schwenger
your grandfather
and Goldie Cameron McKenzie
your grandmother
→

James aka Jim Edward (Morton-Russell) Handy Jr.
her father
Viola Mae Drury - Handy
her mother
Daughter of Dr. George Walker Herbert aka W.H. Drury
and Eva "Effie" Teresa Kopitoski
aka Kopetoske aka Kopitoski aka Kopitoskie
aka Kopetoski aka Kopotoskie aka Kopitowsky
aka Kopitzki aka Kopitzke aka Kopitz
aka Kopetoske aka Kopotofsk
aka Kapitzky aka Kope
(This last name, was found registered at least '14' different ways on USA/canada census records)
it was also the way, this family discovered roots going back to the 13th great grandfather...
and, reunited a few families searching for kin that were utilising changed spellings)
Daughter of Michel aka Michael Kopitoski aka Kopitoskie aka Kopetoski aka Kopotoskie aka Kopitowsky aka kopitzke aka Kopotofsk aka Kapitzky
and Amelia Annie Musclow - Kopitoski
https://www.geni.com/people/Viola-Mae-Drury-Handy/6000000019146942179?through=6000000019146905159
→

James aka Jim (Ruthven) Handy SR.
his father

Ida Eva Morton-Russell-Handy
his mother
Daughter of Robert J. Russell or Robert James Russell
and Florence Melissa Wall

→

Marion aka Marrian Ruthven - Handy - Satchell

his mother
Edward (Gibbons) Handy
his father

→

Alexander (Thompson) Ruthven
her father
Marion Rennie Ruthven
her mother
→

Robert (Witherspoon) Ruthven, Sr.
his father
Margaret Thompson - Ruthven
his mother
→
John Andrew (Henderson) Ruthven
his father
Margaret Witherspoon aka Wotherspoon Ruthven
his mother
→

John (Peadie) Ruthven
his father
Mary Henderson - Ruthven
his mother
→

John (Hutcheson) Ruthven
his father
Marrion aka Marion Margaret Peadie - Ruthven
his mother
→

George John (Reid) Ruthven
his father
Elspeth Hutcheson - Ruthven
his mother

→
William Alexander (Clerksone) Ruthven
his father
Isobel or Isoble Reid - Ruthven
his mother

→

William Ruthven
his father
Marione Clerksone
his mother
→

Sir William Ruthven, Kt. Knight
his father
Mary Gray
his mother
→

William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven
his father
Janet Halyburton, Lady Dirletoun Castle (Ruthven)
his mother
→
Catherine Gray of Buttergask
his mother
William Ruthven, Master of Ruthven , 1st lord of ruthven
his father
→

Elizabeth Stewart
her mother
Andrew Gray, 2nd Lord Gray
her father
→

John Stewart of Balveny, 1st Earl of Atholl
her father
Margaret Douglas, Fair Maid of Galloway
her mother
→

Joan Beaufort, Queen of Scots
his mother
James Stewart, the Black Knight of Lorn
his father
https://www.geni.com/people/Joan-Be...00000000743955206?through=6000000001139931822
→

John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset
her father
Margaret Holland, Duchess of Clarence
her mother
→

John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster
his father
Katherine Swynford, Duchess of Lancaster
his mother

https://www.geni.com/people/John-of...00000000595940091?through=6000000000202115160
→

Edward III of England
his father
Philippa of Hainault, Queen consort of England
his mother
Daughter of William III, count of Holland
and Jeanne de Valois, Countess of Hainault
→
Edward II, king of England
his father
Isabella of France, Queen consort of England
his mother Birth: circa March 17, 1292 Paris, Paris, Île-de-France, France
Daughter of Philippe IV le Bel, roi de France


and Jeanne I, Queen of Navarre


→

Eleanor of Castile, Queen consort of England
his mother
Edward I "Longshanks", King of England Spanish: Isabella Capet, reine consort d'Angleterre
his father

https://www.geni.com/people/Eleanor...00000004838388133?through=6000000000010678591

https://www.geni.com/people/Edward-...00000000614910056?through=6000000004838388133

→

Ferdinand "the Saint", king of Castile and León
her father
Juana de Danmartín, reina consorte de Castilla
her mother

https://www.geni.com/people/Ferdina...00000000010678591?through=6000000008477543238

→
Alfonso IX el Baboso, rey de León y Galicia
his father
Berenguela I la Grande, reina de Castilla
his mother
→

Fernando II, rey de León
his father
Urraca de Portugal, reina consorte de León
his mother
→

Alfonso VII the Emperor, King of Castile and Leon
his father
Berenguela de Barcelona, reina consorte de León y Castilla
his mother
→
Urraca I, reina de Castilla y León
his mother
Raymond of Burgundy, Count of Galicia
his father
→

Alfonso VI the Brave, King of Castile and León
her father
Constance de Bourgogne, reine consort de Léon
her mother
→

Sancha I, reina de León
his mother
Ferdinand I the Great, King of Castile
his father
→
Alfonso V 'el Noble' de León, Rey de León
her father
Elvira Menéndez, reina consorte de León
her mother
→

Bermudo II el Gotoso, rey de León
his father
Elvira de Castilla, reina consorte de León
his mother
→

Ordoño III, rey de León
his father
Urraca de Castilla, reina consorte de Navarra
his mother
→
Ramiro II el Grande, rey de León
his father
Adosinda Gutiérrez, reina consorte de León
his mother
→

Ordoño II, rey de León
his father
Elvira Menéndez, reina consorte de León
his mother
→

Jimena Garcés de Pamplona, reina consorte de Asturias
his mother
Alfonso III el Magno, rey de Asturias
his father
→
García I Íñiguez, rey de Pamplona
her father
Urraca
her mother
→

Íñigo II Arista Íñiguez, rey de Pamplona
his father
Dadildis de Pallars
his mother

→

Íñigo Jiménez, de Pamplona
his father

→
Iñigo Jiménez of Pamplona
his father
Onneca of Pamplona
his mother

→

Jimeno of Pamplona, I
his father
Faquilene of Pamplona
his mother


Jimeno of Pamplona, I


Gender:
Male
Birth:
circa 735
Pamplona, Navarra, Navarra, Spain
Death:
805 (66-74)
Pamplona, Navarra, Navarra, Spain

 

Fergus, Lord of Galloway is your 24th great grandfather.
You
susan lynne schwenger are a 24th great granddaughter

→

Lynda Mae Handy - Schwenger
your mother

→

James aka Jim Edward (Morton-Russell) Handy Jr.
her father

→

James aka Jim (Ruthven) Handy SR.
his father
→

Marion aka Marrian Ruthven - Handy - Satchell
his mother

→

Alexander (Thompson) Ruthven
her father

→

Robert (Witherspoon) Ruthven, Sr.
his father

→
John Andrew (Henderson) Ruthven
his father

→

John (Peadie) Ruthven
his father

→

John (Hutcheson) Ruthven
his father

→

George John (Reid) Ruthven
his father

→
William Alexander (Clerksone) Ruthven
his father

→

William Ruthven
his father

→

Sir William Ruthven, Kt.
his father

→

William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven
his father

→
William Ruthven, Master of Ruthven
his father

→

Isabel Livingston
his mother

→

Sir William Livingston of Balcastell and Kilsyth
her father

→
Sir John Livingston of Callendar
his father

→

Sir William Livingston, MP
his father

→

Margaret Comyn
his mother

→

Elizabeth (Isabel) de Quincy, Lady
her mother

→
Helen de Galloway
her mother

→

Alan mac Lochlan, Lord of Galloway
her father

→

Lochlann (Roland) mac Uchtred, Lord of Galloway, Constable of Scotland
his father
→

Uchtred mac Fergus, Lord of Galloway
his father

→

Fergus, Lord of Galloway
his father
https://www.geni.com/people/Fergus-Lord-of-Galloway/6000000000769891469?through=6000000000769891479


Fergus, Lord of Galloway

Gender:	Male
Birth:	1090 Isle of Man
Death:	May 12, 1161 (71) Holyrood Abbey, Edinburgh, Edinburghshire, Scotland (Old age)
Place of Burial:	Holyrood Abbey, Edinburgh, Edinburghshire, Scotland
Immediate Family:	Husband of Elizabeth FitzRoy Father of Maria nic Fergus; Afreca nic Fergus of Galloway; Daughter Of Fergus, of Galloway; Uchtred mac Fergus, Lord of Galloway; Gilbert mac Fergus, Lord of Galloway and 1 other
Curated by:	Anne Brannen

 

Sir Richard de Quincy is your 26th great grandfather.
You
Susan Lynne Schwenger - 26th great granddaughter

→

Lynda Mae Handy - Schwenger
your mother

→

James aka Jim Edward (Morton-Russell) Handy Jr.
her father

→

James aka Jim (Ruthven) Handy SR.
his father
→

Marion aka Marrian Ruthven - Handy - Satchell
his mother

→

Alexander (Thompson) Ruthven
her father

→

Robert (Witherspoon) Ruthven, Sr.
his father

→
John Andrew (Henderson) Ruthven
his father

→

John (Peadie) Ruthven
his father

→

John (Hutcheson) Ruthven
his father

→

George John (Reid) Ruthven
his father

→
William Alexander (Clerksone) Ruthven
his father

→

William Ruthven
his father

→

Sir William Ruthven, Kt.
his father

→

William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven
his father

→
William Ruthven, Master of Ruthven
his father

→

Isabel Livingston
his mother

→

Sir William Livingston of Balcastell and Kilsyth
her father

→
Sir John Livingston of Callendar
his father

→

Sir William Livingston, MP
his father

→

Margaret Comyn
his mother

→

Elizabeth (Isabel) de Quincy, Lady
her mother

→
Roger de Quincy, the 2nd Earl of Winchester
her father

→

Saier de Quincy, Earl of Winchester, Surety for the Magna Carta
his father

→
Robert de Quincy, Lord of Buckley
his father

→

Lord Saher de Quincy, Lord of Buckby and Daventry
his father

→

Sir Richard de Quincy
his father

→
Robert de Quincy
his father

→

Sir Richard de Quincy
his father
show short path | share this path


Sir Richard de Quincy MP

Gender:	Male
Birth:	1000 Cuinchy, Pas-de-Calais, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, France
Death:	circa 1040 (36-44) Northamptonshire, , England
Immediate Family:	Husband of Lady Judith de Quincy Father of Robert de Quincy
Curated by:	Myrna Huthmacher (Leonard), (C) PRO C

https://www.geni.com/people/Sir-Richard-de-Quincy/6000000000074468278?through=6000000000074463443

 

another interesting line

Gozlin III, comte du Maine is your 31st great grandfather.
You
Susan Lynne Schwenger

→

Lynda Mae Handy - Schwenger
your mother

→

James aka Jim Edward (Morton-Russell) Handy Jr.
her father

→

James aka Jim (Ruthven) Handy SR.
his father
→

Marion aka Marrian Ruthven - Handy - Satchell
his mother

→

Alexander (Thompson) Ruthven
her father

→

Robert (Witherspoon) Ruthven, Sr.
his father

→
John Andrew (Henderson) Ruthven
his father

→

John (Peadie) Ruthven
his father

→

John (Hutcheson) Ruthven
his father

→

George John (Reid) Ruthven
his father

→
William Alexander (Clerksone) Ruthven
his father

→

William Ruthven
his father

→

Sir William Ruthven, Kt.
his father

→

William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven
his father
Janet Halyburton, Lady Dirletoun
his mother
→
Catherine Gray of Buttergask
his mother
William Ruthven, Master of Ruthven
his father
https://www.geni.com/people/William...00000000701212690?through=6000000000701212701

Gender:	Male
Birth:	July 12, 1478 Ruthven Castle, Ruthven, Perthshire, Scotland
Death:	September 09, 1513 (35) Branxton, Northumberland, England (Killed at the Battle of Flodden)
Immediate Family:	Son of William Ruthven, 1st Lord Ruthven and Isabel Livingston

→

Andrew Gray, 2nd Lord Gray
her father
Elizabeth Stewart
her mother

→

Annabella Forbes
his mother
Patrick Gray, Master of Gray
his father
→

Sir Alexander de Forbes, 1st Lord of Forbes
her father

Elizabeth Douglas
her mother
→

Margaret Kennedy of Dunure
his mother
Sir John "With The Black Lip" Forbes
his father
→

Mary Montgomery
her mother
Sir John Kennedy of Dunure
her father
https://www.geni.com/people/Neil-Mo...00000002188032677?through=6000000001783295398
→

Neil Montgomery, of Cassillis
her father
Elizabeth Montgomery
her mother
→

Alan Montgomery
his father

→
Sir John Montgomerie of Eastwood
his father
Margaret Moray of Bothwell
his mother
→

Alan de Montgomery
his father
N.N. of Cassilis
his mother
→

Robert de Montgomery
his father
Marjory Stuart
his mother
→

Arnulph de Montgomery, Earl of Pembroke
his father
Lafracoth ingen Muiredaig Ó Briain
his mother
→

Mabile, dame de Bellême et d'Alençon
his mother
Roger II de Montgomery, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury
his father
→

Guillaume II "Talvas" de Bellême, seigneur d'Alençon
her father
unknown
her mother

→
Guillaume I, 'Talvas' de Belleme, seigneur d'Alençon
his father
Mathilde Hildeburg, de Condé-sur-Noireau
his mother
→

Yves de Creil, seigneur de Bellême
his father
Godehilde
his mother
→

Rothais (Rolais) de Corbonais
his mother
Fulcuin de Belleme, Count Of Cordoba
his father
→
Bilichilde du Maine
her mother
Hugues Ier du Maine
her father
→

Gozlin III, comte du Maine
her father
Godelhide of the Holy Roman Empire
her mother
show short path | share this path


Gozlin III / Godefroi du Maine, comte du Maine

French: Godefroy III du Maine, comte du Maine

Gender:	Male
Birth:	circa 860 Maine, France
Death:	circa 907 (39-55) France
Place of Burial:	Cathedrale St-Julien du Mans, Le Mans, Departement de la Sarthe, Pays de la Loire, France
Immediate Family:	Husband of Godelhide of the Holy Roman Empire Father of Aubert du Maine; Godehilde du Maine; Bilichilde du Maine and Godefroi du Maine de Jarzé, IV

 

Guy leStrange, I is your 28th great grandfather.
You
Susan Lynne Schwenger, are a 28th great granddaughter

→

Lynda Mae Handy - Schwenger
your mother

→

James aka Jim Edward (Morton-Russell) Handy Jr.
her father

→

James aka Jim (Ruthven) Handy SR.
his father
→

Marion aka Marrian Ruthven - Handy - Satchell
his mother

→

Alexander (Thompson) Ruthven
her father

→

Robert (Witherspoon) Ruthven, Sr.
his father

→
John Andrew (Henderson) Ruthven
his father

→

John (Peadie) Ruthven
his father

→

John (Hutcheson) Ruthven
his father

→

George John (Reid) Ruthven
his father

→
William Alexander (Clerksone) Ruthven
his father

→

William Ruthven
his father

→

Mary Gray
his mother

→

Marion Ogilvy
her mother

→
Helen Sinclair, Lady Ogilvy of Airlie
her mother

→

Margaret Hepburn
her mother

→

Adam Hepburn, Master of Hailes
her father

→

Ellen Wallace of Elderslie
his mother

→
Sir Thomas Wallace of Auchinbothy, Kt.
her father

→

Ellen Wallace, heiress of Elderslie
his mother

→

Malcolm Wallace of Elderslie, Laird of Elderslie
her father

→
Adam Wallace, Laird of Elderslie and Auchinbothie
his father

→

John Wallace
his father

→

Sir Malcolm Wallace, Laird of Elderslie
his father

→
Adam Wallace, Laird of Riccarton and Kyle
his father

→

Richard Wallace, Laird of Riccarton and Kyle
his father

→

Sir Richard of Wormleighton de Walays
his father
→

Richard Wallense
his father

→

Eimerus Galeius of Wales
his father

→

Guy leStrange, I
his father


Guy leStrange, I MP

Gender:	Male
Birth:	circa 1048 Norfolk, England, United Kingdom
Death:	circa 1105 (49-65) London, Middlesex, England
Immediate Family:	Husband of Gennavieve Le Strange and Mellette Le Strange Father of Baldwin Le Strange; Bernard Le Strange; Steward Le Strange; Durannus Le Strange; Eimerus Galeius of Wales and 1 other
Curated by:	Anne Brannen

The Legend of Guy Le Strange
incorporating the
'Romance of Fouke le fitz Warine'
From the progenitor of the House of le Strange, Roland Extraneus, we turn to a a remote part of central England a century before, and Guy le Strange who is the earliest, and otherwise, untraced descendant of the family. The le Strange legend that has been repeated through successive generations can be found in part of an epic tale, the Romance of Fouke le fitz Warine. This French prose which was written by an unknown author in traditional trouverian style of the 13th century, was translated and reproduced in early medieval times for its popularity gained by the declared outlaw Fulk who is otherwise known as Fulk the son of Warine [II]. It is a story set in the 11th century A.D. wherein it begins with a certain lady, Mellette, who features as the outlaw's grandmother in her youth, she was united with her husband Guy of Metz, whom otherwise was known in France from whence he came, as Guarine or Warine de Metz.
The chapter conveys how the le Strange family was founded, prior to the Warines, when Mellette, a beautiful damsel has a jousting tournament arranged for by her wealthy uncle, William Peverel. This was held in the time of William the Conqueror, in 1083 at his Castle Peveril in the Peak of Derbyshire [England] (shown above), and this is where she was expected to find a suitable husband, to which she replied; "Sire" no knight is there in all the world that I would take for the sake of riches and the honour of this land but if ever I take such a one he shall be handsome and courteous and accomplished and the most valiant of his order in all Christendom. Of riches I make no account, for truly can I say that he is rich who has that which his heart desires" [Mellette, 'The Romance of Fouk le fitz Warine'].
Noble-men eager to win her as their bride together with dowry including the attractive white tower of white town, known as Whittington Castle [Shropshire], came from every corner; Scotland, Wales and France. The two most salubrious guests, Owen Prince of Wales, and Eneas, Prince of Scotland, brought 200 knights along, - the Duke of Burgundy outnumbered them with a hundred more. Ydromor, Prince of Galloway came with a modest 150 men, but Guy (Guarine de Metz [France] ), son of John, Duke of Brittany, (Johan duc de la Petite-Bretagene), came with only a hundred, plus his 9 brothers.
Ultimately, Guy, with his life spared, victoriously claimed his wife, Mellette, whom already expressed her interest in him by sending over her glove. It continues... "..... Guy remained in England: And conquered, by the force of his sword, many beautiful lands, and so was named Guy le Strange ...."
"Donqe repeyrerent le dys freres ou lur C chevalers á Bretaigne le Menure; mes Gwy, le Pysné frer, remist en Engleterre ; e conquist par coup d'espée meyntes beles terres, e si fust apeleé Gwy le Estraunge, et de ly vindrent tous les grantz seignurs de Engleterre qu ount le sournome de Estraunge". [The Romance of Fouke le fitz Warine] written in French Medieval prose.
From this point on no longer was he a complete stranger to these parts, but Guy de Metz assumed The Strange name and produced his heir, Fulk fitz (son of) Warine . My mention of this name variant earlier suggests that the Warine's and le Stranges were one of the same family determined by its prefix, though the issue is both a complex and controversial one. However, in essence, the tale of Fulk [II] as distinct from the family legend, celebrates a trouverian type romance similar to that of Robin Hood and King Arthur, which are classified as medieval tales everyone can enjoy. What they have in common is a hero in which his romance is defined by courage & adventure, and at the same time presents a platform on which a new family may flourish.
Invariably the le Stranges' descent has since united them with fitz Warines through recorded marriages much later, and scholars who used the manuscript as an accurate historical guide, have, in their attempt to touch upon the truth, added to the frustration as to the foundations of le Strange. Until Victorian times, the le Strange family kept a written history at Hunstanton after Sir William Dugdale’s publication 'The Baronage Of England' (1675-6) appeared (see below). But it was later to prove insatiable when Rev. R.W. Eyton highlighted the conflicting evidence surrounding the date of the event when he published the Antiquities of Shropshire (1854-60) though he at least affords some characters' existence.
The English 16th century version of the Romance had already been incorporated into Leland's Collectanea (1612) by John Leland who associated together with Sir Thomas le Strange at the court of Henry VIII. Inevitably, if Dugdale’s efforts were conspicuous, his compilation incorporating the legend of Guy as their originator has enjoyed some credibility over the past few centuries, though not surprisingly, it has passed into history with a traditional mixture of fact & fiction, leaving it open to doubt.
What inspired the original author, one cannot say, though an unknown troubadour to us in writing an historic tale of his own, perhaps generates more of a mystery than the present Founder of the House of le Strange. But how ever little or much truth there is in the legend, its best strength perhaps survives in the castle foundations on the Derbyshire peak where much more than this legend took place.

---

Guy - - The le Strange legend that has been repeated through successive generations can be found in part of an epic tale, the Romance of Fouke le fitz Warine. This French prose which was written by an unknown author in traditional trouverian style of the 13th century, was translated and reproduced in early medieval times for its popularity gained by the declared outlaw Fulk who is otherwise known as Fulk the son of Warine Ii. It is a story set in the 11th century A.D. wherein it begins with a certain lady, Mellette, who features as the outlaw's grandmother in her youth, she was united with her husband Guy of Metz, whom otherwise was known in France from whence he came, as Guarine or Warine de Metz.

The chapter conveys how the le Strange family was founded, prior to the Warines, when Mellette, a beautiful damsel has a jousting tournament arranged for by her wealthy uncle, William Peverel. This was held in the time of William the Conqueror, in 1083 at his Castle Peveril in the Peak of Derbyshire England (shown above), and this is where she was expected to find a suitable husband, to which she replied:
* "Sire" no knight is there in all the world that I would take for the sake of riches and the honour of this land but if ever I take such a one he shall be handsome and courteous and accomplished and the most valiant of his order in all Christendom. Of riches I make no account, for truly can I say that he is rich who has that which his heart desires" from: Mellette, 'The Romance of Fouk le fitz Warine'
Noblemen eager to win her as their bride together with dowry including the attractive white tower of white town, known as Whittington Castle Shropshire, came from every corner; Scotland, Wales and France. The two most salubrious guests, Owen Prince of Wales, and Eneas, Prince of Scotland, brought 200 knights along, - the Duke of Burgundy outnumbered them with a hundred more. Ydromor, Prince of Galloway came with a modest 150 men, but Guy (Guarine de Metz France ), son of John, Duke of Brittany, (Johan duc de la Petite-Bretagene), came with only a hundred, plus his 9 brothers.

Ultimately, Guy, with his life spared, victoriously claimed his wife, Mellette, whom already expressed her interest in him by sending over her glove. It continues... "..... Guy remained in England: And conquered, by the force of his sword, many beautiful lands, and so was named Guy le Strange ...."

---

It is probable that he died in London, England.

---

The story seems modern in its emphasis and reinterpretation, not medieval. During the medieval period it would be a disgrace for a young woman of means to insist she be married to someone of no means. It would be absurd, shameful, inconsiderate, and extremely unattractive in a wife. It would be an embarrassment to a family. Everyone married within their own social class. There were women who were shunned by their family if they married without consideration for the matters of property and social position. The entire economic system of communities as a whole required the orderly passage of property with strict laws of primogeniture to the eldest son, not daughters. Men without sons sometimes gave their property to daughters if the husband was appropriate. Whatever she might inherit from her father, if anything, would in part be dependent on who she married. He could not give his property to just anybody. Entire villages and kingdoms were at risk by marriages. Marriages was not about sleazy "chemistry". It was about the orderly management of property by a baron who had an obligation to the tenants on his property; that his estates would produce work, food and goods for all of the people associated with the estate. Marriages had to be made between those whose property made sense to be joined. Other people, such as a king or feudal baron had rights to object to marriages that were ill-suited. Besides, what man would want a girl who abandoned the economic considerations of the era, behaved indecently, and had no concern for the secure management of her father's property? It would be a very unattractive, for a young girl to say something so incredibly sleazy. I cannot imagine why any knight would seek the hand of a girl who said that the matters of property were of no concern to her. Well, the property rights were a concern to the entire community. It wasn't about her. Land ownership was everything in that time and who had the power over the land impacted all aspects of life. This is not a romantic story by medieval standards. It is a modern notion that people might marry without concern for property.

https://www.geni.com/people/Guy-leStrange-I/6000000003495393273?through=6000000009279304688

 

Walter FitzAlan, 1st High Steward of Scotland
This is the Master Profile for Walter FitzAlan, 1st High Steward of Scotland.
Walter FitzAlan, 1st High Steward of Scotland is your 24th great grandfather.
You
Susan Lynne Schwenger

→

Lynda Mae Handy - Schwenger
your mother

→

James aka Jim Edward (Morton-Russell) Handy Jr.
her father

→

James aka Jim (Ruthven) Handy SR.
his father
→

Marion aka Marrian Ruthven - Handy - Satchell
his mother

→

Alexander (Thompson) Ruthven
her father

→

Robert (Witherspoon) Ruthven, Sr.
his father

→
John Andrew (Henderson) Ruthven
his father

→

John (Peadie) Ruthven
his father

→

John (Hutcheson) Ruthven
his father

→

George John (Reid) Ruthven
his father

→
William Alexander (Clerksone) Ruthven
his father

→

William Ruthven
his father

→

Mary Gray
his mother

→

Sir Patrick Gray, 4th Lord Gray
her father

→
Gilbert Gray, of Buttergask
his father

→

Elizabeth Stewart
his mother

→

Sir John Stewart, 1st Earl of Atholl
her father

→

James Stewart, the Black Knight of Lorn
his father
→

Sir John Stewart of Innermeath, Knight
his father

→

Sir Robert Stewart of Innermeath, Knight
his father

→

Sir James Stewart of Pierston, Knight
his father

→
John Stewart of Bonkyl and Garlies
his father

→

Alexander Stewart, 4th High Steward of Scotland
his father

→

Walter Stewart, 3rd High Steward of Scotland
his father
→

Alain Fitzwalter, 2d High Steward of Scotland
his father

→

Walter FitzAlan, 1st High Steward of Scotland
his father


Walter FitzAlan

https://www.geni.com/people/Walter-...00000000701216245?through=6000000003615380551

Gender:	Male
Birth:	circa 1106 Oswestry Castle,, Oswestry, Shropshire, West Midlands, England
Death:	February 02, 1177 (67-75) Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland
Place of Burial:	Paisley Abbey, Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland
Immediate Family:	Son of Alan FitzFlaald, Sheriff of Shropshireand Avelina de Hesding, domina Norton Husband of Eschyna de Londoniis Father of David Fitz-Alan; Emma Fitz-Alan; Alain Fitzwalter, 2d High Steward of Scotland; Walter fitz Walter; Simon Fitzwalter and 2 others Brother of Adelina FitzAlan, of Oswestry; William FitzAlan, Lord of Oswestry; Jordan FitzAlan, Seneschal of Dol; Sibil (FitzAlan) de Freville; Simon FitzAlan, of Norfolk and 1 other
Curated by:	Jason Scott Wills

 

Research (not confirmed)

Marrian Marion Ruthven-Handy-Satchell
his mother

→

Alexander Ruthven
her father

→

Robert Ruthven
his father

→

John Ruthven
his father

→

John Ruthven
his father

→

John Ruthven
his father

→

George Ruthven
his father

→

William Alexander Ruthven
his father

→

William Ruthven
his father

→

Sir William Ruthven
his father

→

Janet Ruthven (Halyburton), 6th Lady Dirletoun
his mother

→

Patrick Halyburton, 5th/6th Lord Dirletoun
her father

→

George Halyburton, 3rd/4th Lord Dirletoun
his father

→

Sir John Halyburton
his father

→

Marjorie Stewart Haliburton, Countess of Atholl
his mother

→

Joanna Moray, Lady of Drumersgard
her mother

→

Joan de Menteith
her mother

→

Helena of Mar
her mother

→

Gartnait MacDomhnaill, 7th Earl of Mar
her father

→

Elen ferch Llywelyn
his mother

→

Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of Wales
her father

→

Marared verch Madog
his mother

→

Susanna verch Gruffydd
her mother

→

Gruffydd ap Cynan
her father

→

Cynan ap Iago
his father

→

Iago ap Idwal
his father

→

Idwal ap Meurig
his father

→

Meurig ap Idwal, Brenin Gwynedd
his father

→

Idwal Foel ap Anarawd
his father

→

Anarawd ap Rhodri Mawr
his father

→

Rhodri Mawr ap Merfyn
his father

→

Merfyn Frych ap Gwriad
his father

→

Gwriad ap Elidir
his father

→

Elidir ap Sandde
his father

→

Sandde ap Alcwn
his father

→

Alcwn ap Tegid
his father

→

Tegid ap Gwair
his father

→

Morgause (Anna)
his mother

→

Uther ap Custennyn, King of Britons
her father

→

Ivoire
his mother

→

Lancelot of Brittany
her father

→

Jonaans of Brittany
his father

→

Galains
his father

→

Nascien II
his father

→

Narpus
his father

→

Celedoine
his father

→

Nasciens I
his father

→

Elzasus
his father

→

Saint Jude
his father

→

Blessed Virgin Mary
his mother

AKA Miriam / Maria / Mary mary


Birth:
-26
Nazareth, Israel



Death:

Israel



Immediate Family:


Daughter of Saint Joachim and Saint Anne (Hannah)
is your 52nd great grandfather and 52nd great grandmother

Wife of Saint Joseph is your 51st Great Grandfather

Partner of
Jesus of Nazareth; is your 50th great uncle
Saint James "the Just", 1st Bishop of Jerusalem;is your 50th great uncle
Joses; is your 50th great uncle
Saint Jude; is your 50th great grandfather
Simon; is your 50th great uncle
Elizabeth; is your 50th great aunt
Susanna; is your 50th great aunt
Joanna; is your 50th great aunt
Sarah; is your 50th great aunt
Mary; is your 50th great aunt
Anna; is your 50th great aunt
Salome; is your 50th great aunt
Sister of Escha
Half sister of Saint Mary of Clopas and Mary Salome

Shmuel-Aharon Kam (Kahn) / (שמואל אהרן קם (קאן on February 26, 2007

Curated by: Henn Sarv

**************************************************************************************************************************
and, then need to double check against
Geni - John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow - This guy, was born in 1600s; not 1700s
https://www.geni.com/discussions/207039
there is a whole thread to read there:





John Ruthven
MyHeritage Family Trees
Kingsmore / Ritson Family Genealogy, managed by John (Contact)
Birth:
May 1688 - Saint Ninians, Stirling, Scotland
Death:
Feb 15 1732 - buried 15 February 1732 in Glasgow
Parents:
George John Ruthven, Elspeth Ruthven (born Hutcheson)
Brother:
Donald Ruthven
Wife:
Margaret Ruthven (born Peadie)
Children:
John Ruthven, Anne Wodrow (born Ruthven), John Ruthven, Barbara Ruthven, James Ruthven, Thomas Ruthven, Duncan Ruthven, Alexander Ruthven



S***** L**** Schwenger
1/19/2020 at 10:25 PM
Report | Delete


why do you call him Music Master in Glasgow ???
and, why have you pegged his approx. date of birth
as:
Male
Birth:
estimated between 1663 and 1717 ???
that would NOT be possible
since; he had a son born
February 27, 1718
so, very likely
like his wife; born in late 1600s; and; NOT the 1700s



S***** L**** Schwenger
1/19/2020 at 10:47 PM
Report | Delete


NEAL, you have changed dates on profiles
NEAL, you have changed names on profiles
have you also deleted a few profiles too ???
and, this is why you are out my half a century ???
I am trying to work from newest to oldest. date
and,i think I've done a pretty decent job
on most of the profiles I manage
the problem peadie profile,
you seem to NOT be able to understand this,
but, I did NOT set up this profile
someone else, did that
I started to get this profile ready
to add the correct information
for MARGARET MARION PEADIE
only to discover
you've renamed this file
MARION PEADIE ???
I'm dealing with snow storms in Canada
and, the other Ruthven person who is helping me
is dealing with wild fires in Australia
- this guy subscribes to a service which can get
birth certificates christenings; etc;
it might take us '5 days' to get the information up
NEAL, your information you've added
is actually the WRONG CENTURY
you've also added our profiles
and; typed comments on them
indicating, they are false ones...
without adding any real proof ???
I DO NOT know what your M.O. IS
however, I am finding it
very difficult to do this research properly
and, hang the right information
on the right profile
when you keep altering things
and, switching the names i'm trying to prove
- one only needs to look at the profiles
of marion peadie; & all the changes
to wonder why ???
what is the purpose to making all these changes ???
why is all this necessary ???
the strangest part of all this,
is you say you are NOT even
related to RUTHVEN
so, what is your real interest
in wanting to manage all my profiles ???
'cause i'm getting tired
of wasting my precious time
to put up information to answer your private emails
only for you to change what I put up
and; delete it
perhaps; you'll see
I think the problem is YOUR information
NOT mine !!!
until this profile reads
MARGARET MARION PEADIE
I am not putting the birth certificate here
i'll create another profile



Neil
1/22/2020 at 8:30 AM
Report


EVIDENCE FROM THE RECORDS OF THE BURGH OF GLASGOW
1
25 April 1721: [The magistrats and toun council] Ordains the treasurer and his successors in office to pay to Mr. John Ruthven, musick master in this citie, five pund sterling, yearly, by four quarterly payments, commencing the first quarters payment at Lambass next, for his encouragement to continue and proceed in the teaching and improvement of musick for the benefit of the inhabitants; and thir presentis to continue during the magistrats and councils will and pleasure allenerly. https://archive.org/stream/extractsfromreco05glas#page/107/mode/1up
2
25 September 1725: [The magistrats and toun council] Ordain the dean of gild and bretheren to admit Mr. John Ruthven, musick master, burges and gild brother of the burgh as marrying (blank) Peadie, daughter lawful to umquhill James Peadie, merchant, burges, and gild brother thereof, and to remit his fynes and hold them as payed. https://archive.org/stream/extractsfromreco05glas#page/237/mode/1up
3
20 October 1726: John Ruthven, Musician,in Glasgow, was enrolled as a burgess and Guild Brother of Glasgow on 20 October 1726. He was admitted in right of his marriage to Marion Peadie, daughter to the deceased James Peadie, Merchant in Glasgow, burgess and guild brother. He was admitted gratis conform to an act of council dated 25 September 1725. https://archive.org/details/scottishrecordso43scotuoft/page/384
===EVIDENCE FROM THE OLD PAROCHIAL REGISTERS OF GLASGOW
1
23 May 1717: "Mr John Ruthven Marrion Peadie". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Marriages, 1687-1729, reference OPR.644/1/24] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120103466828&
2
27 February 1718: "Mr John Ruthven & Marrion Peadie a lawfull son John wit Alexr Porterfield James Christie & John Pollock". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Baptisms, 1707-19, reference OPR.644/1/9] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120280005041&
3
'''13 September 1719: "Mr. John Ruthven & Marrion Peady a lawfull daugh[ter] Anne wit Alexander Porterfield & James Christy". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Baptisms, 1719-28, reference OPR.644/1/10] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120282000874&
4
23 April 1721: "Mr John Ruthven & Margaret Peadie a lawfull son John wit Matthew Cuming & John Pollock". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Baptisms, 1719-28, reference OPR.644/1/10] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120281765103&
5
17 January 1723: "January 17 1723 Mr John Riven & Marrion Peadie a lawfull daug Barbara wit Alexander Porterfield & James Christie". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Baptisms, 1622-31, reference OPR.644/1/2] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120274672449&
6
4 March 1725: "Mr John Ruthven & Marion Peadie a lawfull son James wit James Christie & Alexander Porterfield born on thursday the 18th february last at 3 a clock in the Afternoon". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Baptisms, 1719-28, reference OPR.644/1/10] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120282153055&
7
8 October 1727: "Mr John Ruthven & Marion Peadie a lawfull son Alexander, wit, James Chrystie & Alexr Porterfield". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Baptisms, 1x719-1728, reference OPR.644/1/10] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120282789961&
8
15 February 1732: "The Cittie of Glasgow Record of Mortalitie in Anno 1732 ….. ffebr 15 Mr John Riven Musician". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Deaths, 1723-39, reference OPR.644/146] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120128436821&
9
3 March 1732: "The City of Glasgow Record of Mortalitie in Anno 1732 . . . . . March 3. Merion Peadie relict to the desiced Mr John Riven Musikener". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Deaths, 1723-39, reference OPR.644/1/46] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000119973441855&



S***** L**** Schwenger
1/22/2020 at 11:12 AM
Report | Delete


COULD I ASK WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED TO THIS LINE
old information
→
Alexander (Thompson) Ruthven
her father
Marion Rennie - Ruthven
her mother
Alexander Ruthven
→
Robert (Witherspoon) Ruthven, SR
his father
Margaret Thompson - Ruthven
his mother
Robert Ruthven
→
John (Henderson) Ruthven
his father
Margaret Witherspoon - Ruthven (1754)
his mother
John Ruthven, Weaver in Glasgow
→
John (Peadie) Ruthven
his father
MARY HENDERSON ( 1687 - 1747)
his mother
John Ruthven, secundus, grocer in Glasgow
→
John (Hutcheson) Ruthven
his father
Marrion aka Marion Margaret Peadie - Ruthven
his mother
John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow
→
George (Reid) Ruthven
his father
Elspeth Hutcheson - Ruthven
his mother
George Ruthven
→
William Alexander (Clerk) Ruthven
his father
Isobel Reid - Ruthven - Birth: November 16, 1626
Daughter of James Reid
William Ruthven, resident of Brechin
→
William (Gray) Ruthven
his father
Marion Clerk
his mother
William Ruthven, Writer in Edinburgh
→
Sir William (Halyburton) Ruthven
his father
Mary Gray - Seaton - Ruthven
his mother, Daughter of Sir Patrick Gray, 4th Lord Gray andMarion Gray
Sir William Ruthven of Ballindean, Kt.
→
William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven Castle
his father
Janet Halyburton, Lady Dirletoun Castle - Birth: circa April 19, 1503
Daughter of Patrick Halyburton, 5th/6th Lord Dirletoun Castle
and Margaret Douglas - Halyburton
William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven
→
Catherine Gray of Buttergask - Stewart - Ruthven
his mother
Daughter of Andrew Gray, 2nd Lord Gray, Son of Patrick Gray, Master of Gray and Annabella FORBES-Gray
and Elisabeth Stewart, Countess of Argyll, Daughter of John Stewart, 1st Earl of Atholl and Margaret Douglas, Fair Maid of Galloway
Catherine Buttergask
William Ruthven, Lord & Master of Ruthven Castle- Birth: circa July 12, 1478
-Ruthven Castle, Perthshire, Scotland
Son of Knight and Sir William Brentford Ruthven, 1st Lord & Master of Ruthven Castle
and Lady Isabel Livingston - Lindsay - Ruthven, Countess of Brentford
http://www.geni.com/people/William-...64458449390117010?through=546...
William Brentford Ruthven, 1st Lord & Master of Ruthven
is the 14th great grandfather of Susan Lynne Schwenger.



S***** L**** Schwenger
1/22/2020 at 11:14 AM
Report | Delete


what was the original information on this profile
before it was changed to
john Ruthven, music master in Glasgow ???
the Canadian Ruthven
refer to the original settler
as, a master weaver ?



S***** L**** Schwenger
1/22/2020 at 11:15 AM
Report | Delete


there is also a fair bit of information
also on this thread, before a lot of geni.com
got corrupted with changes
John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow



S***** L**** Schwenger
1/22/2020 at 11:21 AM
Report | Delete


I also will make sure I check
THE CANADIAN IMMIGRATION forward
by changing the name to being
in capitals
- and; putting jr. and. sr. etc.,
into the proper fields
-PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THE NAMES
OR; ADJUST THE CAPITALS to lower case
(if that is necessary, i'll do that after I have things verified)
- UNTIL I am finished; if you have issue with things,
kindly, type the problem to this thread,
so, I might address it,
I am gathering
photographs of people
photographs of graves
birth and death certificates etc.,
since CANADA was pioneered
there was NOT very much here but bush
when these folks first immigrated to this region
- HOPEFULLY the Canadian side will end up with all the correct information on Ruthven, on this side of the pond



S***** L**** Schwenger
1/22/2020 at 12:22 PM
Report | Delete


this info I had before some changes happened
MY LINEAGE
You
Susan Lynne Schwenger
→
Lynda Mae Handy - Schwenger
your mother
Murray Bruce aka Muff Schwenger
your father
→
James aka Jim Edward Handy JR.
her father
Viola Mae Drury - Handy
her father, Daughter of Dr. George Walker Herbert Drury
and Eva "Effie" Teresa Kopitoski - Drury,
Daughter of Daughter of Michel aka Michael Kopitoski aka Kopitoskie aka Kopetoski aka Kopotoskie aka Kopitowsky - Born August 18, 1853, Died January 13, 1933 (79) Hastings County, Ontario, Canada
& Amelia Annie Musclow - Kopitoski - Born March 4, 1855.
Daughter of Johann Gottfried (John) Musclow and Emilie Caroline Friederike (Amelia) Schroeder
(Michael Kopitoski)
James Edward Handy Jr.
→
James aka Jim (Ruthven) Handy SR.
his father
Ida Eva Morton Russell - Handy
his mother, Daughter of Robert James Russell and UNKNOWN Morton - Russell
→
Marion (Rennie) Ruthven - Handy - Satchell
his mother
Edward Handy
his father, Son of Charles W. Handy & Mary Gibbons-Handy,
Son of Benjamin Thomas aka Ben Handy Esq. (The Handy Circus Troupe & Astley's Circus)
and Mary Huntley - Grant - Handy - Catawba Tribe
Daughter of Chief Neil Huntley - Catawba Tribe
Marion or "Merne" Ruthven - Handy - Satchell
→
Alexander (Thompson) Ruthven
her father
Marion Rennie - Ruthven
her mother
Alexander Ruthven
→
Robert (Witherspoon) Ruthven, SR
his father
Margaret Thompson - Ruthven
his mother
Robert Ruthven
→
John (Henderson) Ruthven
his father
Margaret Witherspoon - Ruthven (1754)
his mother
John Ruthven, Weaver in Glasgow
→
John (Peadie) Ruthven
his father
MARY HENDERSON ( 1687 - 1747)
his mother
John Ruthven, secundus, grocer in Glasgow
→
John (Hutcheson) Ruthven
his father
Marrion aka Marion Margaret Peadie - Ruthven
his mother
John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow
→
George (Reid) Ruthven
his father
Elspeth Hutcheson - Ruthven
his mother
George Ruthven
→
William Alexander (Clerk) Ruthven
his father
Isobel Reid - Ruthven - Birth: November 16, 1626
Daughter of James Reid
William Ruthven, resident of Brechin
→
William (Gray) Ruthven
his father
Marion Clerk
his mother
William Ruthven, Writer in Edinburgh
→
Sir William (Halyburton) Ruthven
his father
Mary Gray - Seaton - Ruthven
his mother, Daughter of Sir Patrick Gray, 4th Lord Gray andMarion Gray
Sir William Ruthven of Ballindean, Kt.
→
William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven Castle
his father
Janet Halyburton, Lady Dirletoun Castle - Birth: circa April 19, 1503
Daughter of Patrick Halyburton, 5th/6th Lord Dirletoun Castle
and Margaret Douglas - Halyburton
William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven
→
Catherine Gray of Buttergask - Stewart - Ruthven
his mother
Daughter of Andrew Gray, 2nd Lord Gray, Son of Patrick Gray, Master of Gray and Annabella FORBES-Gray
and Elisabeth Stewart, Countess of Argyll, Daughter of John Stewart, 1st Earl of Atholl and Margaret Douglas, Fair Maid of Galloway
Catherine Buttergask
William Ruthven, Lord & Master of Ruthven Castle- Birth: circa July 12, 1478
-Ruthven Castle, Perthshire, Scotland
Son of Knight and Sir William Brentford Ruthven, 1st Lord & Master of Ruthven Castle
and Lady Isabel Livingston - Lindsay - Ruthven, Countess of Brentford
http://www.geni.com/people/William-...64458449390117010?through=546...
putting this here for the curator - ben angel ?



Neil
1/22/2020 at 3:08 PM
Report


Dear Susan,
I have been tinkering with the family tree of the family of Lord Ruthven but I do not think that I have altered the line of ancestry you have identified for yourself.
I have been trying to find out more about Sir William Ruthven and the two sons that are present of his family tree. As things stand this does not look right, and it would be nice if the genealogy could be proved. I am not related to this family but I am interested in them. A link to him follows:
Sir William Ruthven of Ballindean, Kt.
My attention was drawn to John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow, because of my particular interest in the burgesses and guild brothers of Glasgow.
I hope that this answers some of the questions you have.
Kind Regards,
Neil



Neil
1/24/2020 at 7:15 AM
Report


John Ruthven has been identified as the son of George John Ruthven and Elspeth Hutcheson, and the grandson of William Alexander Ruthven and Isobel Reid, BUT THERE IS NO SUCH PERSONS AS GEORGE JOHN RUTHVEN, or WILLIAM ALEXANDER RUTHVEN!
A man named William Ruthven and his wife Isobel Reid did have a son named George Ruthven, whose baptism was registered at Brechin on 4 January 1663, but he is not the same person as George John Ruthven. This NONSENSE has been published in at least ten pedigrees published by MyHeritage, and identified by Geni as SMARTMATCHES
https://www.myheritage.com/matchingresult-27d82aff1958d4298f0ef6205...
Unless I hear a convincing argument for not doing so I propose to disconnect these invented profiles from the Ruthven family tree, and delete them.



S***** L**** Schwenger
1/28/2020 at 11:17 AM
Report | Delete


WHY HAS SOMEONE REMOVED THE WIFE
OF SIR WILLIAM RUTHVEN, KT ???
William Alexander (Clerksone) Ruthven
his father
Isobel or Isoble Reid - Ruthven
his mother
→
William Ruthven
his father
Marione Clerksone
his mother
→
Sir William Ruthven, Kt. Knight
his father
Mary Gray
his mother
→
William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven
his father
Janet Halyburton, Lady Dirletoun Castle (Ruthven)
his mother
→
Catherine Gray of Buttergask
his mother
William Ruthven, Master of Ruthven , 1st lord of ruthven
his father
→
Elizabeth Stewart
her mother
Andrew Gray, 2nd Lord Gray
her father
→
John Stewart of Balveny, 1st Earl of Atholl
her father
Margaret Douglas, Fair Maid of Galloway
her mother
→
Joan Beaufort, Queen of Scots
his mother
James Stewart, the Black Knight of Lorn
his father



Neil
1/28/2020 at 11:59 AM
Report


I have already replied to you enquiry.



Neil
1/30/2020 at 5:55 AM
Report


In a pedigree published in the Ruthven Family Papers it has been claimed that John Ruthven (Music Master in Glasgow) was the great-grandson of John Ruthven, third Earl of Gowrie. He is said to be the son of another John Ruthven, who may have been associated with Kilmarnock, but the author could not identify his grandfather by name, or provide any evidence which proved the claimed relationship with Earl John.
https://archive.org/details/ruthvenfamilypap00cowauoft/page/62/mode...
The pedigree published in the Ruthven Family Papers conflicts with another seven pedigrees published by MyHeritage, which claim that John Ruthven (Music Master in Glasgow) was the son of George Ruthven and Elspeth Hutcheson, residents of St. Ninians parish in Stirlingshire, whose baptism was registered at St. Ninians on 4 May 1688.
https://www.myheritage.com/matchingresult-28bcc236b7dd6a11edc4a6395...
Presently, it is not possible to confirm or refute the ancestry proposed by either of these pedigrees (The old parochial registers are unhelpful in this regard, although the baptismal registers of St. Ninians parish do suggest that George Ruthven’s son may have remained there, married, and had his own family. Details are given in the profile overview). In view of this conflict, and because of the lack of evidence, I believe that John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow, should be disconnected from the family tree of George Ruthven and his wife Elspeth Hutcheson. I also believe that his relationship field should be locked in order to ensure that his profile is not the subject of a wrong merge in the future. In the event that proof of relationship is eventually found the profile can be unlocked in order to allow his ancestry to be progressed.



S***** L**** Schwenger
2/10/2020 at 2:40 AM
Report | Delete


the john Ruthven, I am searching for
was born 1687 ?
I think he is a weaver
but, you say music master
i'll add a few more things I found to media
thank you
susan



Neil
2/10/2020 at 4:49 AM
Report


What single piece of evidence was it that led you to believe that John Ruthven was born in 1687? If you have evidence (not a claim or an opinion) you should share it.
If you have evidence that identifies John Ruthven as a weaver you should share it. All of the evidence so far discovered identifies him as a Musician, or Music Master. On 25 April 1721 the magistrates and town council of Glasgow agreed to pay him five pounds sterling annually for the: "teaching and improvement of musick for the benefit of the inhabitants". https://archive.org/stream/extractsfromreco05glas#page/107/mode/1up



S***** L**** Schwenger
3/8/2020 at 5:26 PM
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witherspoon maybe wotherspoon and could also be weatherspoon



Ashley Odell C
3/8/2020 at 7:35 PM
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S***** L**** Schwenger, it looks like a lot of the images you've added to this profile are about people other than John Ruthven. Can you help re-tag them to the appropriate profiles?
https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000008442250405?album_type=phot...= for example appears to be a William Ruffin/Ruthven.
Sir William Ruthven of Ballindean, Kt. looks like the man who goes with https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000008442250405?album_type=phot...=
And so forth.



Ashley Odell C
3/8/2020 at 7:45 PM
Report


Mary Campbell is the Mary Campbell who married James, 7th Lord Ruthven of Freeland but the sketch's caption says Mary Campbell married James, 6th Lord Ruthven of Freeland. That is incorrect; the wife of the 6th lord and mother of the 7th was Lady Mary Elizabeth Leslie. So the book containing https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000008442250405?album_type=phot...= is wrong. Use it cautiously.



S***** L**** Schwenger
3/9/2020 at 12:24 AM
Report | Delete


This info; i believe should go here
William Ruthven
mentioned in the record of Alexander Ruthven
Name: William Ruthven
Sex: Male
Wife: Marioun Clerk
Son: Alexander Ruthven
Other information in the record of Alexander Ruthven
from Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
Name:
Alexander Ruthven
Event Type:
Christening
Event Date:
20 Nov 1608
Event Place:
Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Event Place (Original):
Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Gender:
Male
Father's Name:
William Ruthven
Mother's Name:
Marioun Clerk
clerk =clerksone Marioun = Marione



Ashley Odell C
3/9/2020 at 1:59 AM
Report


None of that information is about John Ruthven, so it will not be added to this profile. It should instead be added to the profiles of the people mentioned.



Anne Brannen C
3/9/2020 at 11:28 AM
Report


S***** L**** Schwenger -- as Ashley Odell points out above, the profile that this tread focuses on -- John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow -- has a great many documents attached in the Media section -- at the time of this writing, 98 -- most of them added by you, and most of them not about this John Ruthven at all.
Could you move them to where they belong?
The sheer number of documents means that there is essentially no real information, since it's almost impossible to sift through them to find things that actually have to do with this profile.



S***** L**** Schwenger
3/9/2020 at 11:50 AM
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YES, i WILL move them to where they belong
neal wanted to see them
in order that we both properly tag them



S***** L**** Schwenger
3/9/2020 at 11:54 AM
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i have confirmed that tthe right one is 1688, not 1687 (not sure; where exactly the 1687 came from) ?



S***** L**** Schwenger
3/9/2020 at 11:56 AM
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ashley
- we have been trying to prove the bloodline
between LORD 2
and, this fellow
- so, yes, all of the documents uploaded
are important to this blood line
-and, must be sorted to the correct spot
but, it all begins at JOHN RUTHVEN, music maker
if i scatter them all over the place
then, it is NOT easy seen
how all the parts of the whole puzzle fit together
i have likely put 500 hrs of work into this RUTHVEN THING
and, NOW, i think i have all the pieces of the puzzle
i didn;t upload them to one spot
to make life difficult !!!
i uploaded them, so, ANNE & NEAL could see them all
and, then, he could help me sort them to the correct spots



Anne Brannen C
3/9/2020 at 12:41 PM
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S***** L**** Schwenger -- as I have written to you in several places, none of the documents you have been uploading are useful to the issue that you are interested in.
Here is what I said last time:
I went through the lineage you posted here, going back to John of Gaunt.
All of it is in Geni and is just fine, and isn't necessary to discuss,
UNTIL
we get to John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow.
That's where the line, as you have it, breaks down.
Nothing else is relevant, and all the extra information not only doesn't illuminate anything, it makes things very hard to follow.
As we have said, what is missing is evidence of THIS John Ruthven's parents.
We have evidence of him, and his marriage, and his work life, and that is all very clear.
And we have a birth record for the John Ruthven that was born to George and Elspeth.
You want for it to be accepted on Geni that John Ruthven in Glasgow is the same John Ruthven that was born to George and Elspeth in Stirling.
It is possible that he is the same person, but there is no evidence that he is.
Until that evidence is found -- if indeed it exists, which it looks like it doesn't -- Geni policy at this time is to leave John Ruthven's parents unknown.
Niel has provided an extensive explanation of the various issues about his parentage, in the Overview for the profile. So a discussion of the various pedigrees given for him, and the problems with him, is there.
That's where things stand at the moment.
No discussion of peripheral relatives, or other pieces of the line, will help in this.
The only thing that will change anything will be a paper trail that makes it clear that the John Ruthven born in Stirling to George and Elspeth later moved to Glasgow and married Marion Peebles.
It would be wonderful if their marriage record listed their parents! In some places, at some times, that has been true.
But alas, not in this case.
That is what we need -- it's only that link that needs to be addressed. The other pieces are not helping, because there is a piece that does not exist. At least as far as we have seen so far.



S***** L**** Schwenger
3/18/2020 at 5:02 PM
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I have a family history that starts at
(that I Know of) John and Margret Marion Peddie(Peadie)
of 1695.
Their children I have listed are
Anne(1719-1814),
John (Apr.25 1721-?)
maried Mary Henderson on May 17, 1747.
A son who pass on in infancy,
James (1725-1808)
married Lillian Henderson,
Alexander whom died in 1727
and Thomas who
married Margaret Nesbitt,
Duncan who
married Jean Brown,

Archibald who
married Elizabeth Morrison.
Robert (1777-1852) who
married Margaret Thompson
(1770-1863).
Their son John (1799-?).
He stayed in Glasgow.
His children were:
Margraret,
Agnes,
Jesse,
Jean,
Mary,
Kathren
and John
.In 1863 he went to USA.
Alexander's children were:
Robert (1831-1910) single,
George (1833-1907)married
Christina Carins (1846-1932),
Alexander(1834-1870) single,
William (1835-1923)single,
margaret (1837-1916)
married William Blain,
Marion (Merne) Ruthvn (1839-1903)
married Edward handy
remarried William Satchell,
John Ruthven(1840-1916)
married Frances Stevenson(1849-1888),
James (1842-1929) married Eleanor Maguiness(1849-?),
Mary (1844-?) Married John Black,
Isobelle (1846-1939) married Patrick Fitzpatrick.
I got more and more information
about it my Grandfather
did all the research on our family history.
https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/ruthven/79/
i'll check this with my records
​

 

i was taught RUTH_VEN
I ASKED my aunt; whose father's mother was
Marion (Father - Ruthven, mother was a Rennie) Ruthven - Handy - Satchell
she said; definitely RUTHVEN
(ri(th)ven ~with an accent, but, sounds like the girls name RUTH

 

"May the BOUDiCCA in all of us, ride again"
- Susan Lynne Schwenger ~ The eXchanger
The Great Granddaughter of
Boudicca, Celtic Warrior Queen of iCENi
~ who was her 45th great grandmother

Artist: susan lynne schwenger

 

has; anne of britian, as daughter of anna/morg - sister of king arthur, and, father of uther ap cust./pendragon